Known for researching the rise of populist leaders and the German-American political scientist points out failures in left behavior by dealing with these phenomena.
In an interview with video conferencing SheetMounk argues that the left is trapped in a ivory tower, which has come to see itself as part of the Estabishment and should recover its roots as a defender of freedom of expression.
He argues that it should be limited, believing that it is not up to governments or technology companies to decide which views to be censored. “Although countries in Europe and Latin America have adopted quite extreme forms of censorship, they could not make the ideas that expect to censor disappear,” he says.
Bolsonarists were very excited about the victory of. How much right -wing populists with authoritarian trends strengthen each other?
Brazil and are, in some respects, very similar societies. Therefore, I think the fact that someone like Trump wins for the second time should also update the likelihood of someone from the Bolsonaro line to be elected in Brazil.
I think the most important part is the information that gives us about the current nature of Western democratic societies. There is also direct political influence. The fact that the president of the United States and one of the richest men in the world may be helping to boost these political forces in Brazil. This enables or, in France, say, “Our relationship with the United States will improve if I am elected instead of becoming an international outcast as a result of my election.”
Trump said the United States. Does this also signal that Bolsonaro and his allies are not so important to him?
Well, the only person who is important to Donald Trump is Donald Trump. His criterion to determine who he likes is who likes him. In your negotiations with Brazil or other countries, Trump will say: “I’m happy to work with anyone as long as you recognize that I am the boss.” I don’t think he thought a lot about Lula or Bolsonaro. He says, of course, I get along with Lula, I get along with anyone, as long as he gives me what I want.
Is Trump’s victory a warning to Lula, considering the next elections?
This style of policy [populismo] It has become one of the dominant forces in virtually every democracies in the world. But moderate forces also maintain a very powerful place. We can expect quite fierce competition between them.
What I understand, not closely following Brazilian politics, is that, at this moment, is the favorite to overcome reelection. But he certainly has vulnerabilities, from his age to the fact that Brazil is a very polarized country.
Over the years, Democrats have tried everything to defeat Trump, and to advance them. Why did all strategies fail?
Well, you’re right and wrong. I would say that the Democrats have tried all strategies except to look in the mirror and try to adopt popular positions. In a way, Trump has been much more relentless and agile when dealing with his weaknesses. Thus, when he realized that abortion was a danger to him, he promised that he would not sign a federal law prohibiting the procedure. Democrats did not make so much to cover their vulnerabilities in issues such as immigration and the participation of trans women in competitive sports or other areas in which they are deeply unpopular.
What is the first step to defeating Trump?
I would say it is to avoid the mistakes that Democrats made in 2016. Accepting that Trump was legitimately elected, avoid misleading statements about the ways he is dangerous, focus on the real abuses of power, which will be many. I fear that democrats are already falling into the trap of not doing that. The government took so many genuinely unpopular or potentially dangerous measures in the first ten days, but the biggest debate on social networks was that Elon Musk had done or not.
I wonder if the Democrats are lost in the same way as the Brazilian left in front of the right -handed right.
They are very lost. I always think of a famous book by Thomas Kuhn about the structure of scientific revolutions. He says that when a certain scientific paradigm fails to explain the world, even scientists who begin to recognize this are not able to abandon this structure because they have no alternative. It is necessary to invent a new structure so that they are willing to abandon the old one.
If you don’t have a new structure, you double the bet on easy things. You call Trump of Hitler, Mussolini. You again use forms of symbolic policy that gather your base, please your donors and are required by your younger employees, but it does nothing to expand your coalition or even to keep the people who have historically been part of it.
Why have you aligned with leaders like Trump?
First, they are genuinely annoyed by the government’s censorship attempts. Anyone who defends freedom should be more skeptical about the dominant view in much of Europe and Latin America. I became quite American about it. I don’t think governments should decide what I can say and read online. And I don’t think the billionaires should decide. The only way to preserve this is to really require genuine and comprehensive freedom of expression on these platforms.
Mr. Is it against any form of?
We need some forms of regulation for things like child pornography and blackmail. But it should not be possible for the government to say that “this is a political vision that we consider bad, offensive or dangerous and therefore we will influence these companies to force them to remove these things from the air.” I think it is very naive, especially at a time when populist forces are as powerful as now, to think that governments will always be, or most of the time, alongside the tolerant and progressives.
Did the left got used to trying instead of disputing public opinion?
Yes, and I think this has something to do with the fact that the left was trapped in the ivory tower mindset. It’s easy when you are in a space like a university, where the left has been dominant for many decades, making appeals to authority because you know that the person in position of authority agrees with you.
Although countries in Europe and Latin America have adopted quite extreme forms of censorship, they could not make the ideas that expect to censor disappear.
The left should recover its roots as a defender of. The sad truth is that it is always the stablishment that wants to impose limits on discourse. In many countries, the left began to be attempted by this mistaken position, which goes against its own history and tradition, because it began to consider itself as the establishment.
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Yascha Mounk, 42
Professor of International Relations at John Hopkins University (USA). PhD in government from Harvard University (USA). Author of “The People Against Democracy”, “The Great Experiment” and “The Trap of Identity”.
