“The answer” to the problems that humanity faces is “more” emphasizes, during an interview with “Vima”, one of the most famous French sociologists and intellectuals, the 79 -year -old student of Alain Tourene, Michelle Viviorka.
A thinker who “transfers” optimism even when discussing his US, convinced that the young man can affect developments on the other side of the Atlantic. “We are on the same side as the Pope when we fight against totalitarianism, free democracy, authoritarianism and”argues, the leading social scientist, president of the Maison des Sciences de l’Homme Foundation and Director of Studies at the école des Hautes études en sciences social in Paris, who loses his optimism only when our discussion is led to Gaza and Israel.
What can be the answer to a world with governments that violate international law and with dangerous resuscitation of tensions between nuclear forces?
“Europe is the answer. That is, I think that the more we try to beat Europe, the less respect for international law, national law, the greater the far -right, more authoritarian policies, “illiterate” democracies and dictatorship. “
Are you worried about the rise of the far -right pan -European?
“In France, a country of good example of a democracy that fails due to financial problems or because it is difficult to make a clear proposal for the environment and employment. We need new politicians. We may have to consider the classic form of political action, namely political parties, to be replaced, and democracy take other forms, not exclusively representative. The far -right national gathering is strong. But whether to win the next elections in France will depend on the ability of the classic right and classic left to invent new programs. The game against the far -right has not been lost in France or Europe. In general, I’ll repeat it, we need more Europe. And this is a matter of political action. “
Political action, how?
“Creating a common defense policy, common diplomacy and strong common industrial policy. I am a staunch supporter of the Draghi exhibition. I find that if we want to have a stronger economy that allows for common defense and diplomacy, the key is industrial policy that will include technology and digital transition. Europe is weak in these areas. It is possible to build them. “
Is Chancellor Friedrich Merts a factor in optimism for European goals?
“I don’t know. What I know is that as citizens and intellectuals who want a better world we must put strong pressure on political elites, national level, and European leadership, in order to move on to strengthen European industry, defense and diplomacy, although of course things change from elections to each election.
Europe, however, is in the middle of the US-China trade and geopolitical war.
«It will be able to survive, because it is a strong financial partnership. Europe is much more important than Russia as a market, as an industry, from a scientific and spiritual point of view. Nothing can be viable in a world divided into two blocks. First of all, I’m not sure Russia, China and Brazil will always be on the same side. And Trump’s policies can change. No one excludes that in the next five years – not in the next six months – the Americans will realize how dangerous they are to vote for Trump. If I were, however, the US president and saw Putin and Xi Jinping together in the Red Square, I would think that I might have to be more helpful to Ukraine and re -examine my relations with Europe. Things can be shaken at all times at both blocks. Do not think that the world is not changing. And between these two blocks, Europe could be a third. “
Could the new Pope Leo ‘be acting as a counterweight to “trampism”?
“Naturally. Let me remind you that in the late 1970s, Polish Pope John Paul II was elected, who gave the citizens of a deep Catholic country to fight against communism, without violence, organizing a new workers’ union that marked its beginning. The Pope’s political role was extremely important. Pope Leo I ‘feel that he will be able to tell the Americans, “do not accept to do badly to the immigrants, do not accept to build walls.” Already with what he has stated, he recalls his predecessor, Francisco. He doesn’t like the walls and wants “bridges”. It will certainly help people who do not accept Trump’s policy to maintain hope. Perhaps he could even oblige Trump to modify his policy somewhat. “
Do you find it possible to do so?
“Yes. Could affect the developments internationally. We watched a few days ago in Moscow, the Russian and the Chinese leader commemorate the end of the end of World War II. On the same day that the two leaders called “war” and “military power”, showing how they want to rule the world, the new Pope repeated the word “peace”. It is extremely important to have this voice. In the 1970s in Poland, an important left -wing intellectual, Adam Mistnik, published a book entitled “The Church and the Left”, where he argued that although the Catholic Church was reactive and with many problems, it remained the main force that could be opposed. Adding that the intellectuals belonging to the Left had to coordinate their action with the action of the Catholic Church. My argument today is exactly the same. I am not in favor of the church. But we must definitely take into account that we are on the same side as the Pope when we fight against totalitarianism, free democracy, authoritarianism, the far -right. “
What do you predict for Ukraine, after the latest mediation?
“Two months ago I was much more pessimistic, maybe tomorrow I will be pessimistic again. It is certain that Ukraine still exists. This is very important. Russia did not achieve the victory it wanted. Of course, I would like Europe to be more devoted to Ukraine, which now has a very strong military industry. If Kiev joins Europe, it will be very useful. The defense industry costs a lot, but it also creates a lot of jobs and because it is of high quality, it has large sales potential outside Europe. “
Is there a risk of nuclear warfare in the event of a escalation of intensity between India and Pakistan?
“I hope both sides realize that. I do not imagine any normal person accepting this case. But are the leaders of the two countries normal people? I wish it. “
You are the son of a Polish -Jewish family survivors of the Holocaust. What is your position for what is happening in the Gaza Strip?
“Criminal! I don’t know if the word genocide is accurate for what it does in Gaza, I’m not a legal one. But what he does is extremely criminal and I am vertically opposed. Not as a Jew. But as a mere citizen, as an intellectual, as a social scientist. And what Hamas did on October 7, 2023, is also criminal, as is extremely criminal who has forced her people to bomb. I also find that there are deadlocked discussions about who is guilty and who started it. Do we have to go back to the 1970s, 60s or even further, at the birth of Israel in 1948, to say who is right? These discussions may be interesting, but they do not help find a sustainable and fair solution. “
What would be a fair solution?
“The recognition of both peoples. Some support it through the creation of a new federal state, others creating two separate states. I am not an expert to suggest the way such a vision will be achieved. There are also protests in many countries where protests speak on behalf of Gaza and the Palestinians – and are absolutely right to do so – but are protesting on the basis that all Jews are guilty of Netanyahu’s crimes. This is not acceptable because it leads to anti -Semitism, which is also a crime. Because, therefore, this is a complex situation, it is not only to live Jews in Palestine or only Palestinians, nor the end of the state of Israel. But let me be pessimistic. We must remember that Netanyahu has been elected, so many people insist that Israel is a democracy. So if it is democracy, it means that Netanyahu is not a dictator. The problem, then, is that Israeli society is ill and is not able to tell Netanyahu that it is over. So the first question is how this country could get rid of Netanyahu and return to a normal regime. And the second, if there are people on both sides in order to have a real debate about what will happen after the bombing and murder of so many people in Gaza. The problem is not only that in Israel they have Netanyahu, who would not want a viable solution, but that neither the Palestinians have the leadership that would make this debate possible. “
