In that small room, a person also has social needs and has to expose himself to the other person. There I learned how to pray and there I learned to deepen my faith. It wasn’t just signing up for something, but signing up for someone.
No, not that. I was only in custody because I had not been convicted. I was released after those seven months, so I was only with three heavy hitters during that time. But precisely because it was body to body, one had to find a way to the other, talk to him. It was a good school for me. On the other hand, I sat “only” for seven months. That’s a short time – I know people who have sat for much longer.
Despite the detention, you continued your civic activities and, moreover, you remained in Czechoslovakia. One Turkish dissident, Ahmet Altan, who spent years in prison, once said that exile was worse for him than prison. Do you feel the same way?
Yes. I was pressured many times by the State Security to move out, but I’m glad I resisted. Not that I would think of myself as somehow important, but I told myself that it is necessary to strive for something to change here.
So don’t choose your own comfort – but I’m not condemning anyone who decided to emigrate. Everyone is in a slightly different situation, in a different state of mind. But I’m glad I resisted it. Because I felt that this was my field of action and that I should not leave that field. Even though they often, basically every interrogation, forced me to move out.
Let’s move to 1988. That’s when the Candlelight Manifestation took place in Slovakia. This is an important moment for the Catholic Church in Slovakia, since the manifestation was organized by Catholics. How did you look back on your cooperation with the Slovak church?
I often went to Bratislava in Slovakia. I was most in contact with Ferko Miklošek and Ján Čarnogurský. I even visited Cardinal Korac twice, so I knew the situation of Catholics in Slovakia relatively well. I was well informed because I had the information straight from the source. I admired, for example, how the university youth in Bratislava were organized – here in the Czech Republic I did not see it that much. I watched the candlelight demonstration very carefully, and I must say that I was very pleased and encouraged – because in our country, the public space was more civil than church.
Don’t you feel that things have now turned around to some extent and that the Slovak church has kind of forgotten about November 17? Sometimes it seems that the church in the Czech Republic remembers him more than the one in Slovakia.
Hard to say. Naturally, the Slovaks with whom I am in contact remember and remind him well. It was a significant watershed and it is important to remember it. However, it must be said that in the Czech Republic the civil movement was more developed before 1989, while in Slovakia the resistance was rather through the church, because there were only a few Chartists. There were not as many independent initiatives as in the Czech Republic and Moravia, and they, of course, contributed to November 17.
Now that you are talking about commemorating November 17 – what do you think about the fact that in Slovakia this year, November 17 will not be a day of rest for the first time? It will remain a public holiday, but people will go to work. Doesn’t it take away from his weight?
I don’t think it’s a good decision. This event concerned the whole society, not only the Catholic Church – a member of the Catholic Church is also a member of society. We have to consider the society as such, and November 17 concerned all its members.
Didn’t you notice that during this period, Slovak Catholics thought back to the Slovak state, to the people, and the like?
The people I interacted with, whether it was Ferko Mikloško, Ján Čarnogurský, Vlado Jukl, Dr. Krčméry, they were critical of it. We talked about it and I, of course, mainly listened – because it’s embarrassing when a person immediately blurts out that he thinks this or that. This confirmed to me that everyone looks at this matter in the same way. Later, I registered that there were certain people who tried to defend the period of the Slovak state, but I myself did not move in this environment.
I definitely think it was not happy that he put himself at the head of a state that collaborated with fascist Germany, Catholic priests (Jozef Tiso, editor’s note). And even from the Vatican at that time there were requests that President Tiso no longer perform this office. This is proven today. And I think it didn’t help matters.
We will stay in the 89th year. At that time, you were among the most influential people, including Václav Havel. How was working with him for you?
I met Václav Havel in the Charter and we were in intensive contact until 1989, both in the Charter and in the Committee for the Defense of the Unjustly Prosecuted. After ’89, he had many roles as president, and I didn’t feel like I should still be around him, even though I continued to publicly support him. I explained his attitudes to people when they asked about them, and even in his illness I visited him several times, when he asked me to pray the Lord’s Prayer.
Václav Havel, of course, also asked me questions of faith, but he was also a person who confided in me about his personal matters, which I will not talk about. And I have to say that he was a firm man, an unassuming man, and he was such a natural authority. I always say that when ten smart people get together, something doesn’t always come out of it, because everyone wants to solve their own problems. But Havel was able to capture the essentials, so we always came to some kind of conclusion. I like to remember him in this sense.
In the past, you received several offers to enter politics, including from Václav Havel. You talk about it as your biggest temptation. Why did you decide not to enter politics?
I’m glad I resisted it. Yes, I was tempted, but I said to myself: “You are a priest and your mission is not to hold a political office. But you are also a citizen, so you can express yourself on certain social issues.” I still understand this as part of my mission.
And I also think I predicted well. At that time I was at the height of popularity, but if I had any position… There is no person who is liked by everyone, and people would ask: “What is the pastor going to tell us?” Because prejudices against priests, those in part of society were and still are. Above all, I didn’t want to connect the powerful with the priestly service.
Towards the end of the eighties, you were very active in the public sphere. When did you start to perceive that the end of the regime was becoming a reality?
You know, I was happy with every shift, but to tell you the truth, I didn’t believe that anything would change for a very long time. Perestroika came, Gorbachev came… In the Soviet Union at the time, the atmosphere was much more relaxed than in Czechoslovakia at the time. A few thousand people took part in the demonstrations in 1988 as well, it wasn’t a mass movement, the same in 1989.
We kept asking, “Why don’t more people come?” Of course, I registered the victory of Solidarity in Poland at the time, but things did not move much in our country. I was convinced only by the period from the summer until the fall of the Berlin Wall. It was a surprise to me that only the heavy intervention of the policemen on the National Class in Prague on November 17 woke people up.
The behavior towards Čaputová disrespects many politicians
Since this awakening that you speak of, at one point in 1989 it seemed that the Czech Republic and Slovakia were going in the same direction, away from communism and further towards democracy. Today, however, it no longer seems like that, and democracy in the Czech Republic and Slovakia looks quite different. Why do you think this is so?
The situation here is also not exactly rosy after the last elections. Many people elect untrustworthy people and make cheap promises that they cannot fulfill. The basis is for people to realize that we have a responsibility for the future that we will prepare for the younger generation.
It’s not much different from Slovakia after our elections, it’s just that it’s tougher in your country. But the danger is the same. Here, too, there are people who say no to Europe, that we must cultivate national tradition. And I am for its cultivation, but our only chance is to be anchored in the European Union and NATO. Not everything is rosy, but our threat is evident.
You have already explained your reason for not entering politics, but do you think that if you had entered politics as a prominent Christian figure, Christianity would have played a greater role in the Czech Republic? For example, when forming a company?
You know, one has to make compromises in politics, and I don’t know how I would be able to do something like that. I don’t rate myself that way.
You also mentioned František Miklošek. He is still an important opposition politician, during a government in which there are also people who ideologically like to return to communism or socialism. Are you watching it?
Yes, I’m watching. I recently met Ferko Miklošek, so he reported to me why he voted the way he did, and I appreciated that very much.
Do you mean the constitutional amendment?
Yes. I think it is important that this voice was also heard there, and one can remain a good Catholic and not feel that he has forgotten something or even betrayed something.
He voted against many such questions out of principle. In your opinion, doesn’t that make him a “lesser” Catholic?
(Nods.)
And do you have information about events in Slovakia from him?
Yes, but also from others. Now, for example, I read the interviews with Ms. Čaputová and I must say that I was surprised by what she was exposed to, what pressure she faced. I think that it does not honor many Slovak politicians. Just for the reason that a person is supposed to be noble towards a woman, and to behave like this even to this woman, who was trying to do something good, is really disgusting.
You also received an award from her as the president. How did you feel that you are still perceived in such a positive way in Slovakia?
Of course it flattered the man’s pride and vanity, I appreciated it. I have been interested in Slovakia for a long time and I think I have understood it a little more. It seems to me that you Slovaks are better informed about what is happening in the Czech Republic than we are about Slovakia. Because there is still the simplistic view that Slovakia is Fico, but it is more complicated. So I’m glad that thanks to my friends I can get to know Slovakia a little more.
You spoke about social events, including in Slovakia, even after 1989, an example is the case with the former Archbishop Bezák – you publicly defended him. What made you do it?
The reason why he was dismissed was not completely transparent at the time. I think that in this situation it would be polite to tell each other the reasons, if it wasn’t something scandalous – which it wasn’t. It was all covered up with a kind of curtain, and that person was deprived of an important position from day to day. I felt, for the sake of fairness, that I had to stand up for him and at the same time show that he is not alone, that there are people who support him.
You have to be patient with the young
You often talk about inviting and involving young people in the church. Even the late Pope Francis tried to do that. How did you perceive her role in this?
Above all, don’t immediately raise your finger, but start by explaining the terms: grace, sacrifice, love. To show that they have their counterpart in the Gospel, and above all to show that the figure of Jesus and his path lead to the development of human dignity. And not immediately pull out the commandments with the words: “You must!” And at the same time also listen. Today’s generation communicates differently, you need to know how to address them.
And it takes a lot of patience, not pushing people right away. It is also about the issue of homosexuality – it is necessary to explain very gently, not to immediately claim that it is one way or another. This does not mean discounting, but rather being sensitive. And I don’t think that’s happening.
And finally, one more topical question. What was your relationship with Dominik Duka, who died a few days ago?
The relationship was correct, good. I didn’t agree with him on everything, but I can’t complain that there was a cold relationship or some great tension between us.
