Gustavo Petro thought this week that at any moment an assault force could land on the roof of the Casa de Nariño, the Colombian presidential residence, and reach his office. In the Palace he does not have a bunker to run to hide, as Nicolás Maduro tried a week ago before he was captured and heading to the United States. The 65-year-old president of Colombia felt endangered by Donald Trump’s suggestions that something similar could happen to him. The Republican has called him a drug addict, thug, drug trafficker and Maduro’s front man. He has been included on the Clinton list and his visa has been revoked. Petro, meanwhile, he says, clung to “the people” as a shield against the army with the greatest firepower in history and the sword of Simón Bolívar, kept like a relic near him.
One phone call has changed everything. Petro and Trump spoke on Wednesday for an hour and at the end they seemed satisfied with the conversation and said goodbye in a friendly manner. With that mood Gustavo Petro arrives for the interview, this Thursday late in the afternoon, in one of the rooms in Nariño. An assistant fixes her hair before sitting in the chair and another brings her eye drops.
Today, his anti-imperialist rhetoric has been toned down. He goes so far as to say that his positions regarding the fight against drug trafficking or the need for a transition in Venezuela that culminates in elections are not so far from those of Trump. Petro even finds some similarities between the two. “He does what he thinks, like me. He is also pragmatic, although more so than me. I like to talk,” he jokes. Petro doesn’t want any more conflicts with him, for now.
He doesn’t have much left as president, only eight months. The international situation, in which he feels more comfortable, keeps him away from the problems at home. His presidency has also been marked by some cases of corruption that have included two of his former ministers, who are imprisoned, and violence continues despite his attempt to bring peace to the country. At Christmas, he decreed an economic emergency to cover a gap of 16.3 trillion pesos (about $4.35 billion) in the 2026 budget, an exceptional decision that reflects the fragility of the political and economic moment five months before the elections.
Ask. Were you really afraid of suffering the same fate as Maduro?
Answer. Undoubtedly. Nicolás Maduro or any president in the world can be removed if he does not agree with certain interests.
P. Did you strengthen your security in any way?
R. There is not even anti-aircraft defense here. It was never bought because the fight is internal. The guerrilla does not have F16 fighter jets and the Army does not have that type of defense.
P. Did your intelligence services warn you of any real danger?
R. It hasn’t been necessary. Trump has been saying it for months. But what we use here is popular defense and that is why I called for popular resistance on Wednesday. [en concentraciones que llenaron plazas de todo Colombia].
P. Has the threat been diluted?
R. I think it froze, but I could be wrong. We did not know what military action was planned, only that there was one in progress.
P. How do you know?
R. Trump told me on the call that he was thinking about doing bad things in Colombia. The message was that they were already preparing something, planning it, a military operation.
P. How was that dialogue?
R. The conversation consisted of me being able to express my opinion. He had only received information from the opposition via the State of Florida – where the most radical Republican wing is located. That opposition lies about our fight against drug trafficking. You read what Álvaro Uribe (former Colombian president) says and practically he comes to defend that they attack us.
P. What impression did Trump leave on you as a person?
R. He does what he thinks, like me. He is also pragmatic, although more so than me. I like to talk. His vision on many matters is very different from mine. But for example, in drug trafficking, we do not have any distance. He told me something that I liked: ‘I know that many lies have been made up around you, just like about me.’
P. He has also spoken with Delcy Rodríguez, the new president of Venezuela in Maduro’s absence. What is your room for maneuver with Trump on top of you, who claims to be “in charge” of Venezuela?
R. I’m friends with her. It is pressured from without and from within. They accused her of being the traitor. She sees the need to strengthen Latin American unity, but her central task should be to unite the people of Venezuela. If the people divide, there will be colonization. If you unite and look for a political solution to the obvious problem that exists, you can move forward.
P. Has she asked you for help? Your minister [del Interior, Armando] Benedetti has said that when you offered to mediate, Trump changed the subject.
R. Benedetti was a witness, but I don’t know if he heard Trump’s words. It didn’t seem like it to me. The conversation basically consisted of me explaining my ideas for 40 minutes and he, in 15, talking about how to communicate. Because all this happens because we don’t communicate.
P. Are you now afraid that Diosdado Cabello is a destabilizing element within the Government itself?
R. All the political forces that currently exist in Venezuela must exist. Eliminating some by violent means will bring more violence.
P. Among those forces is María Corina Machado, the leader of the opposition.
R. You have to change your speech. Everything he has done now is wrong, including winning the Nobel Prize for Trump.
P. Let’s say that you are not very supportive of her, but how do you also coexist with the idea that it is not her or Edmundo González who govern when they are the ones who won the elections?
R. The thing is, I don’t consider that they were free elections.
P. Something similar to what the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, has said…
R. The position of the United States in relation to Venezuela is not that far from mine. The idea of a transition towards free elections and a shared government has been raised by others, such as Rubio, and coincides with my proposal. But it cannot be imposed from outside, it must arise from Venezuelan dialogue. The role of the United States should be to allow that dialogue, together with Latin America. Before the elections in Venezuela I proposed a shared government, inspired by the experience of the National Front in Colombia. In Venezuela it could be applied briefly to create conditions for truly free elections. I also proposed a plebiscite, but it was not accepted by the United States or Maduro. Now it could be resumed.
P. It is far from what ended up happening in the end.
R. I was a royal mediator, along with Mexico, Norway and other countries. Before the elections we sought an agreement to hold free elections. I spoke with [el expresidente Joe] Biden and with Maduro about that option. In Bogotá, perhaps the last meeting was held with governments from Europe, the United States, several Latin Americans and us. The idea was to end the blockade and stop the repression, but Maduro said: “How can there be free elections if they have put a price on my head?” The United States came to accept, but the repression was not dismantled, nor was there an amnesty, nor was there an unlocking of the blockade and everything failed.
P. Did the fact that Maduro did not agree to leave after the fraud accusations lead to everything that happened later?
R. I did not recognize those choices. Neither did Brazil or Mexico. And after that I couldn’t go to Venezuela. And with Trump less, any type of possibility of mediation ends. The Trump Government wanted to do it on its own.
P. What is that way?
R. The central thing is that there is a clash of visions: US law allows them to enter another country if there is criminal activity such as drug trafficking, but international law does not. If it becomes widespread, it can lead to a world war. The issue is not Venezuela, the issue is China: the United States fears competition with China and seeks energy to compete commercially, but that will lead to war.
P. When is Delcy Rodríguez coming to Bogotá?
R. He asked me for two weeks. You need to see what is happening in your own country and not make mistakes.
P. And when are you going to go to school? White House?
R. First will go the foreign ministers to Washington to square the day.
P. Regardless of the call with Trump, there have been concessions and negotiations on security issues, such as bombings or extraditions. Has Trump asked you to withdraw the political status of criminal groups that are now negotiating peace?
A. Actually I do not recognize that status because they are groups that have dedicated themselves to greed. There is something that Trump can help with and that is that the prosecution is the one that would have to take over the negotiations and has not wanted to do so out of fear. But negotiating with a criminal group is done by the United States all the time. The United States negotiates with the bosses that we extradite.
P. Do you think that Iván Cepeda, the leftist candidate for this year’s presidential election, has enough strength to succeed you?
R. I can’t get into politics. It is prohibited.
P. What kind of former president are you going to be? Will he do active politics like Álvaro Uribe?
R. I’m not a tired old man. I’m not as old as him. I prefer to dedicate myself to reading and writing books. Everything has gone wrong for Uribe.
P. He has said that he has felt alone and misunderstood as president. Now that the twilight of his Presidency begins…
R. What sunset? The fact that with so little left, so many people go out to the squares shows strength. I feel very satisfied with the company of the people.
